Jennifer Swanson on Reinventing Business for the Era of Data and AI
In this episode Frank and Andy welcome Jennifer Swanson explains how businesses can reinvent themselves for the data driven age of AI.
From recognizing the importance of defining clear strategies and outcomes to the struggles of change management, Jennifer reveals that the heart of digital transformation lies in aligning individuals to the company’s objectives, and significantly, that it’s less about the technology itself and more about the people and processes.
Whether you’re a leader in your organization, part of a cross-functional team, or simply intrigued by the intersections of technology and business, this episode is a rich exploration of what it really means to be digitally transformed.
Show Notes
05:31 Technology now integral to every business operation.
07:07 Offline businesses integrating technology for improved experience.
10:04 First wave of digital transformation: applying technology.
14:09 Data governance key to organization’s predictable success.
16:54 Organizational governance ensures strategy, priorities, and outcomes.
21:47 Training, support, and focus key for empowerment.
25:57 Selecting narrow slices drives model implementation success.
28:49 “Positive experiences with scrum and DevOps”
32:22 Leadership defines market, customer, and problems.
36:12 In cross functional teams, sticking to lanes.
38:53 Embrace collaboration and diplomacy for success.
40:26 Smart professionals promoted to leadership roles, questioning suitability.
44:15 Found work through family influence and adaptability.
47:23 Experimenting with tech is now very accessible.
50:28 Family loves Audible, enjoys romance novel series.
55:23 Jennifer, thanks for the great digital transformation explanation.
Transcript
Hello and welcome back to Data Driven. Our next
Speaker:guest on the Data Driven podcast is none other than the digital diva
Speaker:herself, Jennifer Swanson. As the CEO of
Speaker:Tuckpoint Advisory Group, Jennifer doesn't just navigate the
Speaker:digital transformation landscape. She practically
Speaker:terraforms it. With an explanation of digital
Speaker:transformation that's so clear and compelling, it could illuminate the
Speaker:darkest corners of the Internet, Jennifer has the uncanny ability to
Speaker:demystify the complexities of our digital age.
Speaker:Her insights don't just scratch the surface. They
Speaker:dive deep into the heart of how technology reshapes businesses,
Speaker:cultures, and our very existence. Now on to
Speaker:the show.
Speaker:Alright. Hello, and welcome to Data Driven, the podcast where we explore the
Speaker:emergent fields of artificial intelligence, data science, and, of course,
Speaker:data engineering. And with me, is my most
Speaker:favoritest data engineer in the world, Andy Leonard. How's it going,
Speaker:Andy? It's going well, Frank. How are you? I'm doing alright. It's been a
Speaker:wild week here at, Chateau Lavinia, and, you
Speaker:know, we've had, just got back from a funeral out of state, and,
Speaker:you know, it's all sad and all. But, Yeah. I it has taught
Speaker:me to appreciate every moment, because our future
Speaker:is not guaranteed. So true. How about you?
Speaker:How things by you in Farmville? Things are good. You know,
Speaker:we're in the end of February. We're doing this recording on February
Speaker:27, 2024. And,
Speaker:you know, the trees have been budding now for about, I don't
Speaker:know, 2 or 3 weeks, and you may see me do, you know, rub the
Speaker:corner of my eye. Pollen seems to be getting there. I actually washed
Speaker:pollen off the windshield earlier today. True story.
Speaker:Not a lot. Not a lot. Just a just a little bit of a
Speaker:dusting, but it was definitely pollen. Yeah. And we've been
Speaker:sneezing. We've had our than that. Our interesting.
Speaker:We've had our first, start of, fake spring.
Speaker:It's, like, 50 degrees today. And then tomorrow, it'll probably be, like, you
Speaker:know, below freezing. Might get snow again. Who knows? But speaking
Speaker:of snow, our guest today is from a place
Speaker:known for lots of snow. Except this year.
Speaker:Right. Except this they were just talking about that in the green room. Yeah. That's
Speaker:right. So I'd like to welcome Jennifer, Swanson to the show.
Speaker:She is the founder and CEO of Tuck Point Advisory Group,
Speaker:a collective of digital transformation experts helping world
Speaker:class organizations integrate digital technology into all
Speaker:areas of their business and significantly improving customer experience and their
Speaker:operations. So this is the, I guess it's second episode where we talk about
Speaker:customer experience and customer, success, but
Speaker:digital transformation, if there's ever been a loaded word.
Speaker:I know. I know. What is that? Because I I when I was at
Speaker:Microsoft, they they had this, the previous leader of the
Speaker:particular group I was in had had something called Digital Transformation
Speaker:Academy, and I wasn't really sure what it was about. It was
Speaker:Yeah. To to me, it was an excuse to go to Vegas in this particular
Speaker:executive to show off her her boat collection.
Speaker:Sure. But I'm pretty sure digital transformation has more to do with
Speaker:actual real work. Well, I think so. But, you
Speaker:know, there's still a fair number of people walking around showing off their boats
Speaker:and Rolexes that are working in digital transformation too. I
Speaker:I will tell you that, I usually lead
Speaker:with digital transformation because I can usually gauge
Speaker:whether or not somebody is gonna have the slightest clue what I'm
Speaker:talking about when I say, well, sure. I'm a consultant. I work in digital
Speaker:transformation, and then I kinda watch their eyes. And if they glaze over,
Speaker:I leave it at that. And then I ask them about whether or not they,
Speaker:you know, watch the latest whatever sports ball thing or whatever, and then
Speaker:we kinda move on from there. Or if they lean in and go,
Speaker:you know, what do you mean when you say digital transformation? Then I go,
Speaker:They're at least interested. Right? Like, at least they know something about this.
Speaker:And really honestly, for me, digital
Speaker:transformation is has lost all meaning. Right? It is
Speaker:really for me the end tuck point. We really actually focus on operating
Speaker:models and how companies work with technology and
Speaker:people to, like, bring value both to the
Speaker:company and the and the people that they serve. Right? The employees,
Speaker:the customers, clients, what have you.
Speaker:But nobody would understand that, and that sure as heck doesn't fit on a tagline
Speaker:on a website or anything else like that. So we we use the vernacular of
Speaker:digital transformation because that's the space in the market that is sort
Speaker:of most often discussed. But, actually, the way we
Speaker:describe digital transformation was in the headline you read, which is
Speaker:technology infusing every part of the business. Right?
Speaker:So 15, 20 years ago, maybe 25 years ago,
Speaker:technology was the thing that drove, you know, our
Speaker:email, maybe our the data stack, the, you
Speaker:know, the customer database, the, you
Speaker:know, the the big computer in the backroom. That's actually how my dad got his
Speaker:start. He worked he worked with the computer. Right?
Speaker:And that was in the giant the giant clean room. Right? The
Speaker:computer. Nice. Back in the sixties
Speaker:seventies in grocery. That was where he got his start.
Speaker:Right? Technology was this thing that sat over there, and it
Speaker:was, like, a part that was one part of the business,
Speaker:and then the rest of the business operated sort of independently
Speaker:from technology. And clearly, we are 50, 60 years
Speaker:from that genesis. And where we are now is that
Speaker:technology is the business and business is technology, and there's no part
Speaker:of any business anywhere that is not
Speaker:touched by technology, even in businesses that are
Speaker:not technical by nature. So I always tell the story,
Speaker:and I always say, stop me if you've heard this one. But, you know, take
Speaker:the most offline business you can think of, and I always I go
Speaker:to masonry. Right? And maybe because we've we did a massive
Speaker:backyard patio project last year. Right? So here you have
Speaker:people who are they're ordering
Speaker:patio pavers and bricks and mortar and all of that stuff.
Speaker:Right? So they are coming out to my house, and they are working in an
Speaker:incredibly manual manner of
Speaker:measuring and, you know, leveling and everything in there,
Speaker:building things with hands with
Speaker:hands and and materials. But guess what? They have to order all of that.
Speaker:They've got supply they've gotta manage supply supply chain
Speaker:issues. They've got labor. They have to be paid.
Speaker:They have to be hired. People are finding them online
Speaker:through review sites, through everything else. So even these
Speaker:considered, like, offline businesses still have
Speaker:technology all throughout their business. And the question is,
Speaker:how integrated is that? How well is it
Speaker:managed? How intuitive is that?
Speaker:How, easily, how easy is it for
Speaker:employees to manage it? How easy is it for customers
Speaker:to use it? How does all of that enhance the customer
Speaker:experience? And for small companies, sometimes
Speaker:the answer is it's great. Sometimes for big companies, the answer is it's
Speaker:great. And usually the answer is, well, you
Speaker:know, it leaves a little to be desired. And that's where we
Speaker:come in to really help think about that end to end experience, whether
Speaker:it's on the employee experience side, the customer experience side, or sort of
Speaker:the full stack, right, to really think about it, you know,
Speaker:nose to tail, stem to stern, and think about how that full
Speaker:experience is gonna be integrated and that technology end to end
Speaker:integration is gonna happen. The you can't do that with
Speaker:teams that are functioning in silos. You have to have cross
Speaker:functional teams. You have to have cross functional organizations. You
Speaker:have to have funding models that support that. You have to have
Speaker:governance models that support that, and you have to have very different kinds
Speaker:of mindsets that are different than when technology was,
Speaker:again, the computer in the room over here and business off doing
Speaker:their own thing. So that's kind of my manifesto of who I am and
Speaker:what we do. That is the single best sorry. The
Speaker:definition of of digital transformation. The single best one I've
Speaker:ever heard. Aw. Now Thank you so much. It it's awesome because, you know, you
Speaker:you bring up a good point that all of the way companies
Speaker:are structured, it was the computer people were kinda
Speaker:off on their own. Yeah. And when
Speaker:I switched computer science when I was young but a young man in university,
Speaker:my mom was horrified by the fact I would be one of those weird
Speaker:people in the basement. Yes. And He has with moss on his
Speaker:back. Right? Yeah. Right. And, you know, it's,
Speaker:my home office, ironically, is in the basement of the house. But
Speaker:Sure. I have a window. But, and
Speaker:and, plus, you know, a lot of the the way that organizations are
Speaker:structured are very much in that that kind of that
Speaker:pre kind of modern era And you bring up the point, like, cross
Speaker:functional teams, cross functional budgets. And Yeah. You know,
Speaker:it it's almost like and correct me if I'm wrong, that the
Speaker:the the the way that companies are organized and structured
Speaker:is still 60 some odd years behind the curve. Yes.
Speaker:Yes. Sorry, Andy. I didn't cut you off. Yeah. Sorry.
Speaker:No. Sorry, Andy. No. That's okay. You asked what I was going to, so we're
Speaker:good. I was going for cross functional and and a little more depth there.
Speaker:Yeah. The, and that's the part that I think is really interesting is
Speaker:that I think the first wave of digital transformation was, let's
Speaker:apply technology to everything. Right?
Speaker:And not to steal a very another very
Speaker:overused phrase, but that's putting lipstick on a pig. Right?
Speaker:Because what the assumption was, we could just
Speaker:take technology, you know, and
Speaker:smack it right on top of all of the old structures, all
Speaker:of the old ways of doing things, the old, you know,
Speaker:sort of siloed structures, The the
Speaker:manufacturing model of we, you know, we do something over
Speaker:here, and we hand it off to somebody next to us who hands it off
Speaker:to somebody else who hands it off to somebody else. And, really, modern technology
Speaker:is not built that way. Right? Modern technology really has a much more
Speaker:organic structure and has to be built in a more thoughtful
Speaker:strategic end to end manner if you're gonna get the the ROI
Speaker:out of it. And so that's where
Speaker:operating model transformation comes in. Right? And that shift from
Speaker:project management into product management and really thinking
Speaker:about that end to end structure. And so I think that's really
Speaker:where I believe that second wave transformation piece is coming
Speaker:in, and that's where we find you know, that's our market is in that
Speaker:second wave where people will ask me, well, what kind of technology do you work
Speaker:on? And we're like, yes. All of it. It doesn't matter because it's
Speaker:it's not about the technology. It's the organizations that are not
Speaker:seeing their investments in that technology or those data
Speaker:structures or whatever it is, whatever those investments were in that first
Speaker:wave, the executive teams are going like, wait a minute.
Speaker:We were promised x, y, and z, and we're
Speaker:not seeing it. Why not? And it's because it stopped with the
Speaker:technology, and it did not go deep enough into ways
Speaker:of working and into structure and into culture and
Speaker:into governance and all those other pieces.
Speaker:I think back to when I was a younger man,
Speaker:and I was working in a large chemical company, and they had set up a
Speaker:website. Right? They set up this big ecommerce thing. There's obviously the website
Speaker:to kinda explain the company and all that, but they had this idea where you
Speaker:can order directly on the web. And, ultimately, what happened was
Speaker:somebody got an email and somebody manually key in the order into SAP.
Speaker:But it. But you're right. Like, it was it was really
Speaker:more of a pressure to get some kind of way that people can
Speaker:order online in a way that
Speaker:it was a very much a facade, and it was very much a duct tape
Speaker:solution. But I think back, and I'm like, you know, if I could go back
Speaker:in time and tell myself something other than the winning lottery numbers, it
Speaker:would be Yeah. You have to think about the business
Speaker:structure that you're operating in as an IT person
Speaker:and very much so these are not IT
Speaker:experts. These are not And and the people on the board, they get these
Speaker:promises from vendors, from the news media, from
Speaker:this, and they don't see it because it's
Speaker:people process and technology. Right? Like, in in technology, you know,
Speaker:one thing of it. And, AI, I think I'm seeing this all
Speaker:repeat at kitchen kids of AI. Okay. So I'm not
Speaker:crazy. Right? So is this kind of like AI? And I get a lot of
Speaker:customers say, we want to use Gen AI. For what? And
Speaker:when you challenge them, they kinda say, well, we want a chatbot.
Speaker:K? For what? For what? And
Speaker:Yes. I don't think people are really fully
Speaker:I I encourage people to think beyond the chatbot. Right? Because there's gonna
Speaker:be more use cases for Gen AI. But I
Speaker:think the fundamentals are people, process, and technology. What's
Speaker:your data supply chain look like? Governance. Right? You said governance a number
Speaker:of times. You know, you you're on the short path
Speaker:to being one of my favorite guests. What does
Speaker:governance mean to you? Right? Because you're probably talking about more than just data governance.
Speaker:I am. Although data governance is a really important
Speaker:part of it, I just think that, inside of organizations,
Speaker:which, by the way, governance makes me, like, the least popular person at any
Speaker:dinner party, but I really do like governance because what
Speaker:governance says to me is that there's inside of an organization.
Speaker:There is a predictable,
Speaker:and it doesn't have to be overly structured.
Speaker:It does not have to be onerous. It does not have
Speaker:to be, you know, death by committee because, good lord, we need
Speaker:fewer of those. But that does have to be a predictable
Speaker:method by which,
Speaker:ideas
Speaker:get floated up, prioritized,
Speaker:and green lit, right, according to the outcomes and
Speaker:strategies that are decided as the most important ones at the top of the house.
Speaker:Right? So in a in a high functioning organization in my mind, right,
Speaker:in a really modern, forward thinking, outcome oriented
Speaker:organization, you have an executive team saying, we
Speaker:know what direction we're heading, and we know what good looks like. Right?
Speaker:Which means they have a clear strategy where they're gonna play and how they're gonna
Speaker:win, and they know they've defined outcomes. Right? We
Speaker:they know that's what, you know, that's what good looks like. They're not
Speaker:saying we wanna make more money. They're saying,
Speaker:you know, they're saying we wanna grow revenue through,
Speaker:you know, organic growth in this particular market. We wanna do
Speaker:it through, deepening our relationship with existing
Speaker:customers, like, whatever that is. Right? They've defined what good looks
Speaker:like, and they've empowered teams to say, alright. Now given
Speaker:that, we trust all of the business units
Speaker:to now go define how they're going to do that within their own spheres of
Speaker:influence. And there's there are those organizations are gonna come back and say,
Speaker:alright. Well, we've got 12 ideas. Here's our 12 ideas. Which 3
Speaker:should we be working on? Right? And governance is the method
Speaker:by which the organization surfaces those
Speaker:ideas, decides how those ideas are gonna move forward, and goes at
Speaker:them because we can't that organization can't go
Speaker:after a 100 good ideas. Right? Somebody
Speaker:shared a quote, and I won't be able to attribute it. So I'm very sorry
Speaker:whoever said it and whoever shared it with me. But, somebody
Speaker:shared with me on LinkedIn the other day something that said, priorities
Speaker:are like arms. Anybody who tells you that they have more than
Speaker:2 is either delusional or lying to you. Right?
Speaker:And so That's a good quote. Like,
Speaker:the those organizations have to have a method by which they're
Speaker:they're saying not even no to things,
Speaker:but not now. Right? And so governance
Speaker:organizational governance to me is a way by which
Speaker:strategy is set, outcomes are defined, and priorities are
Speaker:determined. And the whole organization holds hands and says,
Speaker:this is what we're working on, and it's okay. Not it's not
Speaker:just okay. It's required that we're not working on the
Speaker:things that don't fit in that bucket.
Speaker:Right? Because that's the only way we're gonna be able to get things
Speaker:done that we say are important. And so
Speaker:that governance looks different in different companies. Right?
Speaker:But on some regular basis, the leadership, you
Speaker:know, probably 2 or 3 levels down, all have to come together and hold hands
Speaker:and say, we know what's important. We agree what's important, and
Speaker:we're committed to what's important. Right? Now when you get down into
Speaker:data governance, there's different layers, and that takes on a whole layer different
Speaker:layer of structure and meaning and things like that. But from
Speaker:my perspective, that enterprise governance is
Speaker:that ability to get everybody to hold hands
Speaker:on priorities. You know,
Speaker:it sounds sorry, Andy. It sounds a lot like cultural
Speaker:governance. Yes.
Speaker:Yes. Because how many times have you worked at a
Speaker:company where
Speaker:you get it. There's, like, a executive board meeting and everybody nods at
Speaker:the strategies. It's, yes, this is the best strategy we've ever had in a 100
Speaker:years of whatever. And you look at it and you go, first of all, it's
Speaker:no different than the strategy we had 3 years ago, but okay. And that there's
Speaker:not really a lot of meaning there, and I'm not really sure what it means
Speaker:for me 3 levels down and how I'm supposed to decide what to work on.
Speaker:Right? Yeah. And every vice president in
Speaker:that company is gonna go back to their desk and work on the same projects
Speaker:that are their pet projects because nobody's really holding them
Speaker:accountable to stop working on the stuff that they just wanna work on because it's
Speaker:their pet project. Right? Yep. It's a really hard
Speaker:thing to get everybody in a company to take some bold steps
Speaker:to say what's in and what's out. What we're
Speaker:doing and what we're putting, we're either saying no to or not now
Speaker:to. Right? Yeah. It's really hard to do
Speaker:that. It seems like the no or not now or
Speaker:not yet. That that seems to be the hard one.
Speaker:Sure. Sure. Yeah. Wow. Sure.
Speaker:So that's why we do a lot of, my my advisers
Speaker:and I end up doing a lot of what we call as therapy, a
Speaker:lot of therapy with the executive teams. And the other
Speaker:joke, I have a lot of material that I use, but a lot of it
Speaker:is I come in and I say, we're gonna use the f word a lot.
Speaker:Feelings. We're going to talk about our feelings a lot. That's
Speaker:funny. I like that. And that's what an f word I don't have to bleep.
Speaker:Right. We had our first episode go
Speaker:live, I think, the overnight where it was the first time we bleeped
Speaker:it. It was just kinda funny. So, but,
Speaker:the interesting thing is is that you're right. Like, it it's it's really
Speaker:people and egos. Right? Because Oh, yes. Some people on their on
Speaker:their their pet projects. Like, how do you get them to walk away from
Speaker:their pet projects? It's worth not walk away, put on the shelf for later.
Speaker:Like, that seems like, a lot of therapy, actually.
Speaker:Yeah. Well and some of it is too is the change
Speaker:that people have to make from driving their own
Speaker:agenda to driving the agenda of the company. That's a
Speaker:big that's a big shift. From me to we
Speaker:is a really big shift, I think, in a lot of this. It's a really
Speaker:big part of why we have a lot of change management,
Speaker:as a part of our services. Right? Because I think and we do
Speaker:a lot in terms of, executive team dynamics because
Speaker:that's really where a lot of this starts. And not just at the executive
Speaker:team, but that next layer down. And, you know,
Speaker:every layer of an organization sort of brings with it its own dynamics. What we
Speaker:have found really is that oftentimes, it's not the executive team that has
Speaker:the biggest challenge, and it's not the grassroots layer. Mostly, we
Speaker:find teams, you know, product teams in particular,
Speaker:even if they're new teams, you know, teams of folks that and of
Speaker:engineers, especially engineers that have experience working
Speaker:in agile. They're hungry for this. They're ready. They want the autonomy. They want
Speaker:the empowerment. They're ready to go. You know,
Speaker:some organizations do some work in transitioning project
Speaker:managers and BAs into product roles. They give them training. They give
Speaker:them support. When done well and done right,
Speaker:those folks are hungry and anxious and ready to have that empowerment and that, like,
Speaker:dedicated focus of having one thing to work on rather than being,
Speaker:like, peanut butter spread on things all the time. Right? They wanna really
Speaker:have that focus. So it's not the grassroots that struggles, and it's not
Speaker:the executive team. But those middle layers, you know, we
Speaker:always say what got them here is not what's gonna get them to that next
Speaker:layer. And so really part of it is taking them through that,
Speaker:that change management to building the change muscle to
Speaker:say, like, you've got the right skills. You have to start to shift
Speaker:how you deploy them and helping them feel safe in that
Speaker:deployment that they might suck at it for at first before they're gonna get good
Speaker:at it in that leadership in that leadership mode. And that's really
Speaker:hard to do. It takes a commitment from that top layer, right, and support of
Speaker:their people to say, look. You probably are gonna suck at this, and it's okay.
Speaker:We're we've got your back. Right? That we're gonna, like, help you through it,
Speaker:but that's a really big part of it. And that's why, by the way, what
Speaker:have we just been talking about in the last 5 minutes? We have not been
Speaker:talking one bit about technology, which is why the whole idea that this is
Speaker:digital transformation is such bunk. Right? It's not about
Speaker:the technology. It's all about the people. It's it's poorly named,
Speaker:isn't it? It really is. Digital is almost
Speaker:incidental. Right? Because it's about Right. It's
Speaker:about the the people and the process, not
Speaker:Yeah. Not the technology. Technology is Yeah. That's
Speaker:interesting. I I I
Speaker:I, some time ago when I I switched to working for a software company, You
Speaker:know, I was just like, I just appreciated the difference because a
Speaker:wise man once told me, and he's since passed away,
Speaker:that all companies view software and
Speaker:technology as a necessary evil. Just some view it as more necessary
Speaker:than evil and vice versa and some more evil than necessary.
Speaker:And I think I get it. And I think I know why that is,
Speaker:is it really boils down to how things were originally structured. It was the
Speaker:there was it it had the in a lot of companies, I'm not saying all,
Speaker:but the the general flavor is IT
Speaker:versus everybody else. Right? That's been my
Speaker:experience. So Yeah. Maybe maybe, I'm alone
Speaker:in that. But no it's all been varying degrees of that and and
Speaker:and when you you know, I I I now under
Speaker:see I now see that there's a much larger
Speaker:reason for that. And that that's interesting. So
Speaker:how do you how do you aside from therapy, I mean, how do
Speaker:companies get around this? Right? Like, is this I mean, this is a mindset shift
Speaker:that has to start at the top or start at the bottom and and the
Speaker:middle management, the middle layers. Yeah.
Speaker:Poor middle management. They're always attacked from all sides. But I know.
Speaker:Like, how do you convince like, in a situation where you have
Speaker:convinced mental management to change, what was the what was the commonalities where
Speaker:they did change? Well, so I will tell you. I've been doing
Speaker:this for a while, and it used to I used to take the stance of
Speaker:you know, people would say, is it better to just rip the Band Aid off
Speaker:and just, like, late like, reorgan a whole company in,
Speaker:like, 6 months and just give get just do it everywhere all at once,
Speaker:make a big mess, and then put it all back together, or do you start
Speaker:small and roll it out? And I used to say it doesn't matter. I have
Speaker:since come to a different understanding, and I think I've got, you
Speaker:know, we can do it both ways. There's pros and cons to both for sure.
Speaker:But I think I'm coming around to a preference, of
Speaker:a maybe it's maybe it's my my my age.
Speaker:Right? Is that my kinder, gentler moments of
Speaker:that I think part the best way is is, like, luring
Speaker:people with, you know, sunshine and honey. Right? Like, you find
Speaker:the space where you can really prove the model with, you know, whether
Speaker:it's one one team, you know, 3 teams, something.
Speaker:And I really like this idea of taking a narrow slice right from top to
Speaker:bottom. So you've got somebody from, like, say, a VP layer all the way down
Speaker:to the bottom. So not just taking a frontline
Speaker:team or 2 or 3, but really taking a, you know, like,
Speaker:a a nice narrow slice from top to bottom and proving the
Speaker:model all the way down. So you've got advocates who
Speaker:can see and taste and really, like,
Speaker:be your, like, oh my gosh. This actually does work right in
Speaker:in, like, they can feel it. They can, you know, there's like a
Speaker:visceral feeling to it, and they get excited about it, and then that and start
Speaker:to spread it to almost like, you know, the teams adjacent to them and then
Speaker:the teams adjacent to them and teams adjacent to them. It takes a lot of
Speaker:work to find that right team, but almost in every
Speaker:single circumstance, the effort to find that narrow
Speaker:slice is entirely worth it. Right? If spend even if it
Speaker:means you slow your roll by a month or 2 to find
Speaker:just that right narrow slice until they're ready, or, you
Speaker:know, 2 narrow slices and really, like, wall them off for a period
Speaker:of time, 12 weeks, 15 weeks, something like that to get,
Speaker:you know, the VP, the directors, the teams
Speaker:themselves, get them formed, get them, you know, trained, get them up and
Speaker:running, and get them doing a couple cadences where all of a sudden they start
Speaker:to feel this energy of, I do own my own destiny. I
Speaker:am in charge. I do understand how to work with my business partners. I do
Speaker:know, you know, I can, we can
Speaker:deliver value faster. It is better when, as a product
Speaker:owner, I'm sitting with my engineering team and my designer
Speaker:and my business partners, and we're solutioning in real time. Like, all of a sudden,
Speaker:they start to feel that, and they're releasing things
Speaker:in 6 weeks when they've never done anything faster than 6
Speaker:months. And all of a sudden, they're going, oh,
Speaker:this. And guess what? That that success and that feeling goes all the way up.
Speaker:And I think once you start to get that, then it starts to spread, right,
Speaker:like a good virus through the organization, and you start to go
Speaker:sideways. But you have to have those you can't just have
Speaker:those wins be at, like, the junior level, you know, at the
Speaker:frontline level or the mid middle manager level. You have to sort of have
Speaker:it all the way up, and you have to pick people who are gonna be
Speaker:willing to, like, stand on soap boxes and say the same
Speaker:tell the same stories over and over and over again, and then go sit with
Speaker:other sit with their peers and be like, hey. I see what
Speaker:you're doing, and that's an anti pattern, and you need to knock it off. Right?
Speaker:Like, it can't just be coming from the consultants or from, you know,
Speaker:whoever is the internal champion. It has to be like, you
Speaker:can't this is not okay. Right? They have to be those
Speaker:people have to be the people that are willing to go in
Speaker:and be in battle with you once you go, which means it's sometimes it's really
Speaker:hard to find those folks, but it's worth the time to find those
Speaker:folks. You know? I was I was patting my heart because I'm loving what you're
Speaker:saying. And I've seen this implemented a bunch of different
Speaker:ways, and I just wanted to get your take on it because a
Speaker:few minutes ago, you mentioned agile. And I've
Speaker:seen from, you know, the bottom and then from
Speaker:maybe the, you know, the the lower middle, I've
Speaker:seen, scrum Yeah. Kinda coming
Speaker:in and bringing with it some of the things you're talking about. There's
Speaker:definitely a culture shift that has accompanied scrum
Speaker:where scrum has been implemented successfully in my experience. And
Speaker:I also see, you know, kind of spiders out again from
Speaker:that lower middle level down into
Speaker:more or better or starting DevOps
Speaker:and and those sorts of, that those sorts of thinking.
Speaker:Where where I've not seen here's where I've seen it fail is when
Speaker:people try to take just that piece that works well at the lower
Speaker:end and then apply it up. Right? Yes. I've seen
Speaker:that fail a number of times, and and I don't know why.
Speaker:And it sounds like what you do is you're looking for that
Speaker:entire stack, that that Yes. Silo, that top
Speaker:to bottom, and you're fixing the rest of it. Yes.
Speaker:And so I'd love to love to hear you speak to that. Because let me
Speaker:tell you how many organizations I've walked into where the first thing
Speaker:they say to me is, well, we can't do that here because we tried
Speaker:agile and it didn't work. And I'm like, okay. Say more. Tell me more.
Speaker:And they're like, wow. You know, fill in the blank
Speaker:how many years ago? 18 months ago, 3 years ago, whatever,
Speaker:last week. I don't yeah. It kinda doesn't matter. We
Speaker:we, we put everybody through Agile, and I'm like, okay. Wait. Hold
Speaker:up. What do you mean by everybody? And they're like, literally the whole company. Then
Speaker:I'm like, so just IT. Right? And they're like, no. No.
Speaker:Everybody. We turned everybody in. Everybody was an agile team. So they went around with,
Speaker:like, like, a
Speaker:fairy wand and magic pixie dust. And they're like, you're an agile team,
Speaker:and you're an agile team, and you're an agile team, and they gave out little
Speaker:certificates, and everybody's an agile team, and they put them through, like, a little, you
Speaker:know, whatever, like, a 4 week, 1 week, 12 week, whatever,
Speaker:dojo, whatever. And they were like, you're all agile teams. And,
Speaker:like, they didn't address ownership constructs. They didn't address, like
Speaker:you know, nobody owned anything, but you were an agile team. And I was like,
Speaker:okay. I know what the problem is.
Speaker:You know? And I have at least a half a dozen clients in which that
Speaker:is the exact scenario. Right? Wow. And and to come back
Speaker:in and say, okay. So, yes, Agile's gonna be a part of this
Speaker:story, but only once we address things
Speaker:like, what do teams own?
Speaker:Right? What is the experience or the capability or the product that
Speaker:you own and then how you deliver on it.
Speaker:Agile's the delivery methodology, but you don't start with
Speaker:Agile because Agile's a delivery methodology. Right? The ownership
Speaker:construct and the strategy has to be a
Speaker:part of that. Right? And so, you know, there's no there's no magic
Speaker:pixie dust in my tool belt over here. You know? And so that's,
Speaker:I think, a big part of it. So what's the opposite of that? I
Speaker:mean, so we've we've talked about kind of the delivery model. People at the bottom,
Speaker:lower lower middle and down. What then what is
Speaker:the complimentary part of that that's from there up?
Speaker:Well, some of it a big part of it is getting
Speaker:leadership to understand that they no longer
Speaker:I'm just gonna call a spade a spade. They no longer get to say,
Speaker:the shorthand that I always have is they don't necessarily get to say that the
Speaker:button is blue. Right? They don't get to say
Speaker:they don't get to define the features. They don't get to
Speaker:say, I want you know, in the data realm, their
Speaker:job is not to say to draw on a little Post it note what they
Speaker:want the dashboard to look like. That's not the point. The
Speaker:point is, what questions are you trying to answer? What
Speaker:problem are you trying to solve? What is the customer need that
Speaker:we are trying to meet? Right? And by the way, who's the customer? Right? Like,
Speaker:help define that at the VP and d director level. When
Speaker:you are talking about that top of that leadership stack, that is
Speaker:their job, define the market, define the customer, define the
Speaker:problem. When you are getting to product
Speaker:teams, their job should be to set take those problems and
Speaker:say, we know how to solve those because we understand those
Speaker:customer problems, and we understand our products, and we know how
Speaker:those things can come together. In the data realm, it's no different.
Speaker:We know what problem what questions need answering. We know how we wanna use the
Speaker:data, what insights we're trying to drive. We know what corners we're trying to
Speaker:see around, and those data teams know what is in
Speaker:every single slice of that data lake. Right? They know what's there. Data
Speaker:visualization experts, data scientists know how to bring that to life,
Speaker:but you're not gonna, like, draw me a dashboard anymore. That is we're done with
Speaker:that. Right? We are here to those that middle layer is here to be
Speaker:the experts that you are paying them so handsomely to be. Right?
Speaker:So I I I don't wanna cut you off, but I hear 3, you
Speaker:know, 3 tiers. Yeah. I hear executive, you know,
Speaker:director level. I hear product management. Yes. And
Speaker:then I hear the people that I was speaking to earlier, the
Speaker:the lower, middle, and down. And that's that is a different
Speaker:way of looking at it. Yeah. And the issue is is
Speaker:that they all have a role to play. You
Speaker:have got to get those leaders out of trying to
Speaker:play all three roles because that's not
Speaker:their job. Their job needs to be forward looking and outward
Speaker:looking so that everybody else can be the experts that they are
Speaker:paying, that we're all you know, companies pay a lot of money for the expertise
Speaker:at every layer. Let's let them be those experts and do their
Speaker:jobs. That explains a lot of the failure I saw
Speaker:in my younger days, and I'm older than you, Frank. I've seen
Speaker:more. Probably older than you too, Jen. So oh,
Speaker:Jennifer. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to shorten your name without mentioning it. It's fine,
Speaker:Jen or Jennifer. It's all good. Just don't call me Jenny. That's the only one
Speaker:I don't like. Don't do that. But, no, I've seen that. I've experienced
Speaker:it, and I've wondered why there was this lack of harmony. You
Speaker:know? And I felt like I wasn't being told what I needed
Speaker:as as a person at the bottom. And I wasn't being told what I needed,
Speaker:and instead, I was being told stuff that, you know, I already know how to
Speaker:do this, and part of what you're saying isn't the right way
Speaker:to do it. Some of it is. Right. But Yeah. You know? And
Speaker:it's it's you really did a great job, you know,
Speaker:spelling that out. And and I I think that's again, I'm gonna
Speaker:echo Frank earlier and say that's probably the best explanation I've heard of that.
Speaker:So really good. Fault. And also it's a hallucination.
Speaker:Articulation. That's the way I'm looking for. Articulated that well.
Speaker:Alright. Go ahead. I know. It's also like, oh, that's why everything always
Speaker:was messed up. I don't wanna bring myself more work and and fix
Speaker:it. But That's one. No worries. Like, it was, like, fundamentally, like,
Speaker:the the you were trying to, like, get, like, a diesel engine to run on
Speaker:gasoline or whatever analogy you wanna use. It's just not gonna work no
Speaker:matter how much, you know, you try. One thought I
Speaker:had, and this is something that I've I've wondered since I heard it. So,
Speaker:once upon a time, when I was on a cross functional team, at a
Speaker:very large, software company, and
Speaker:for folks who can use LinkedIn, you can figure out who this was. I
Speaker:was in the office in Washington, DC, and
Speaker:I was on a cross functional team. And I heard somebody say the phrase,
Speaker:and it's the first time they used it at that company that I heard it
Speaker:was, we wanna swim in our own lanes. And I heard that, and part of
Speaker:my, like, brain was like, uh-oh.
Speaker:So given that cross functional teams seem to be
Speaker:crucial for success in this, how do you how do you
Speaker:address that? Because there's definitely a let's be real. We're dealing
Speaker:with people. We're dealing personalities and egos. How do you how do you solve the
Speaker:territorial challenges? Or is it more therapy? Well,
Speaker:there's prob I would want to pull that person aside and say, can
Speaker:we talk a little bit about what was said in that meeting? Right. Right. Well,
Speaker:I was Right. Without the benefit of the I was but a plead in
Speaker:that situation. But yes. I mean, listen. I think, you
Speaker:know, without the benefit of a time machine. Right? Mhmm.
Speaker:I think the reality is
Speaker:human beings are always difficult. We will always be
Speaker:difficult. It's never gonna be perfect. Cross
Speaker:team collaboration and cross you know, just just general cross
Speaker:functional collaboration is always gonna be challenging.
Speaker:We all have our own areas of expertise,
Speaker:but it's the additive power of them that is always
Speaker:what's gonna make breakthrough innovation happen.
Speaker:Right? Mhmm. 1 plus 1 is always gonna equal 4.
Speaker:Right? You're not if you're only working by yourself or you're working within
Speaker:your own swim lane, you're never gonna get to, like, next level innovation or next
Speaker:level, you know, whether it's service innovation or it's
Speaker:technical innovation or it's operational innovation. It doesn't matter. Right? You're
Speaker:just never gonna get there. And, like,
Speaker:human like, the human history is just it's like littered
Speaker:with evidence of this. Right? It's like it's only when
Speaker:cultures and people have bumped into each other. Right?
Speaker:The salons of the 18th century when poets and scientists came together,
Speaker:that's when, like, literally, revolutions happened. Right? Like,
Speaker:this is how it is how it works. So
Speaker:so then the only way to deal with it is to deal with
Speaker:it through sort of nuance and
Speaker:and sort of diplomacy of,
Speaker:yes. We do all have to we have to own our own expertise,
Speaker:but it is a a these are the opportunities. The collaborative
Speaker:opportunities is where where we're gonna shine. So how do we do
Speaker:that in a way that makes us all better? You know? I
Speaker:just think there's no way around it other than to, like, greet it head on
Speaker:and figure out a way to do it in an as nonthreatening away as possible.
Speaker:But there's just there's always gonna be
Speaker:somebody who's gonna be crabby about it, and so then you just gotta figure out
Speaker:how to, like, make it work with them. But mostly, I think what
Speaker:you do is you find the people who I don't
Speaker:know. I'm always the one that's like, yes. Let's all get in a room and
Speaker:do it. Like, I just think about my last corporate experience was with
Speaker:a large health care organization in Minnesota. You can do the same thing
Speaker:on LinkedIn. And I will tell you that one of the most thrilling
Speaker:days of my career, corporate wide, and we all
Speaker:have this, right, of, like, days where you just were like, this, I can't believe
Speaker:I'm getting paid to do this work. Right? The most exciting days of your
Speaker:work, was a day where we were literally having the
Speaker:worst day ever. Like, everything was broken.
Speaker:Things were really, really bad. I mean,
Speaker:bad. And
Speaker:3 or 4 of the smartest people I literally have ever worked with in my
Speaker:career who were pretty high up. We were like, I we were
Speaker:all directors, VPs, and we
Speaker:maybe were promoted due to the Peter Principle. Right?
Speaker:Like, we had all like, we were all really smart people as,
Speaker:like, contributors, and we'd all gotten promoted and we're managing people, but
Speaker:we were really, like, we were all really good doers. And then all of a
Speaker:sudden found ourselves leading organizations going, why are we leading organizations? We were
Speaker:really good doers. And so that included, like, a really smart architect, a really
Speaker:smart engineer, a really smart product person, a really smart, you know, like,
Speaker:strategy person. And all of a sudden, we were all VPs going, how the hell
Speaker:did we end up here? Anyways, we all got in our room in the room
Speaker:in our really fancy suits or whatever and, like, with whiteboards and stuff.
Speaker:And we all went right back to our execution days, and we,
Speaker:like, literally like, I still have a vision of the,
Speaker:chief architect, like, loosening his tie, rolling up his sleeves,
Speaker:and was like, alright. We're gonna figure this out.
Speaker:And it was like 6 hours of the hardest whiteboarding I have
Speaker:ever done. And, like, that was so fun. There
Speaker:was no ego in that room. I was like, Alex, I have no
Speaker:idea what you're talking about over there. Like, this makes no sense to me. Why
Speaker:are we doing it this way? And it was because he is, like, 25 times
Speaker:smarter than me, but, like, I've made him explain it to me. And in doing
Speaker:so, he found some flaws in his thinking, and we, like, you know, figured it
Speaker:out. But there were no egos in that room. We figured some stuff out, and
Speaker:we fixed it. That was thrilling to me. I wanna
Speaker:be around people like that, not the people who were like, Jen,
Speaker:get in your lane, you know, kind of stuff. And I think you just gotta
Speaker:figure out how to be around people like that. That is the best
Speaker:answer to that because I often wonder I often think about that, and
Speaker:I hear the term cross functional teams, and, like, I
Speaker:I know that just the way the wind blows, you'll start
Speaker:hearing, you know, stay in your own lane and things like that. And, like, I
Speaker:understand both points of view, but there's a there's a tension
Speaker:there, and I think that was a really good solution to it. I've I
Speaker:ever since that happened, like, I'll say 8 years
Speaker:ago since I heard that phrase, I was like,
Speaker:that always kinda stuck with me. It was like and then I bumped into somebody
Speaker:else who was on, a cross functional team
Speaker:and was very stressed out, couple years later
Speaker:when I rejoined said company. And,
Speaker:she's like, oh, it's you know, she was explaining situation. I was like, oh, is
Speaker:so and so saying that, oh, you gotta stick your own swim lanes again. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. I was like, okay. Oh, yeah. That is an accident.
Speaker:Right? No. Right. Right. Right. Like, you know, like,
Speaker:now it's interesting. So I don't have any further questions unless you wanna switch to
Speaker:the pre canned questions. I love this conversation. This is awesome because it helped Yes.
Speaker:It helped it helped illuminate a lot of things that I never
Speaker:understood why the situation was so blanked up.
Speaker:See, it's therapy, Frank. I'm telling you. It's therapy.
Speaker:I can look back now on a lot of situations where, I I mean, I
Speaker:just I you feel like you're stuck in a Dilbert cartoon, and it's
Speaker:just like, why why does it have to be this way? Or why is it
Speaker:old? Like, Dilbert's popular for a reason. Like, why is that such a common thing?
Speaker:Right. And, now that kinda
Speaker:helps, I have a lot of more perspective than I it is therapy. Very well
Speaker:done. Bravo. Yes.
Speaker:Okay. So we can questions. Alright. So you wanna kick us off, or
Speaker:do you want me? I'll kick us off. How did you find your I know
Speaker:we're talking about data, but how did you find your way into this line of
Speaker:work? Did this line of work find you, or do you find this line of
Speaker:work? I found this line of work,
Speaker:by a very long and winding road. And what I will just say, I won't
Speaker:take you through all the nitty gritty details, but, I found this line
Speaker:of work because as I mentioned earlier in the, in the interview,
Speaker:my dad is a technologist and my
Speaker:mom, my mom actually got her start, her
Speaker:career. She's actually an artist by education,
Speaker:but, didn't wanna be a starving artist. So she went to work in banking
Speaker:and was a vice president in banking, but was really a
Speaker:relationships person. Right? She did a lot of things with,
Speaker:trusts, and she did fundraising late in her career. So she was a really good
Speaker:relationships person. And so early in my career, what I figured out was that I
Speaker:was bilingual. I could speak business and I could speak
Speaker:IT. And, like, back in the day where that was a much,
Speaker:thicker wall between business and IT, I could speak both.
Speaker:And, I just always really enjoyed being able to
Speaker:bring technical people and business people together and be able to
Speaker:explain those two things, and that always served me well. And that's how I ended
Speaker:up in this line of work because I really liked being the being the
Speaker:connective tissue between those two things. That
Speaker:is awesome. So what is your favorite part of this
Speaker:gig? Oh,
Speaker:okay. So what I will say is that as a consultant, I
Speaker:get to, be a part of lots of
Speaker:different kinds of companies. So I did work. I worked corporate
Speaker:and, you know, client side for most of my career. I started
Speaker:consulting about, 6 years ago,
Speaker:and and
Speaker:I would get impatient when I would work with companies. I'd work there for a
Speaker:while, and then I'd be like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's next? Like you know? And
Speaker:I I worked a couple places long time, for a long time. My longest gig
Speaker:was 8 years at one company, and that was fine. But, really, in those 8
Speaker:years at that one company, it was Capella University. I had 5 jobs in
Speaker:8 years, so it was never too long. Right? Like, I kinda I get antsy
Speaker:after a while. And what I really like about consulting is my
Speaker:ability to go in, learn a ton about a company and a
Speaker:culture and meet all these different kinds of people and feel like I really get
Speaker:to experience what it's like working in and with different companies,
Speaker:but not but then being able to kinda, like, jump around. It's like a sampler.
Speaker:Right? And I love that because I really find organizations fascinating.
Speaker:And so it's that's my favorite part.
Speaker:Interesting. So we have 3 complete the
Speaker:sentences. The first of 3 is complete the sentence. When I'm not
Speaker:working, I enjoy blank.
Speaker:This one is hard because I work a lot.
Speaker:So I'm gonna say I really enjoy
Speaker:reading. So I'm a big reader, and I know you have some questions about books
Speaker:later, so I'll just leave that one. I really enjoy reading.
Speaker:Cool. So our second one is, I
Speaker:think the coolest thing in technology today is
Speaker:blank. I I'm gonna answer this
Speaker:one with how easy it is to experiment. So especially with things
Speaker:we talked about like chat gpt and AI, There's such a
Speaker:low barrier to entry. Like, just being able to go and, like,
Speaker:play around with stuff and experiment with it. I I think
Speaker:that's fantastic. You know, again, 15, 20 years ago, you would have had to
Speaker:have had special access to a university computer or whatever to
Speaker:be able to do some of this stuff. And now it's just so easy to
Speaker:just experiment and try things out. I see that with my kids too. I just
Speaker:love it. That's
Speaker:cool. And the 3rd and final complete the sentence
Speaker:is, I look forward to the day when I can use technology to blank.
Speaker:Okay. I have given this thought. I want a
Speaker:fully integrated solution of laundry from
Speaker:hamper to washer to dryer back
Speaker:to drawers. Like, I don't even wanna touch it. Like, it has to be like
Speaker:a like a closed system. I don't wanna touch it. I hate
Speaker:doing laundry. It's like my least favorite thing. I've tried outsourcing as
Speaker:much of it as possible, but at some point, I do have put it away.
Speaker:And, like, I have to, like, touch it. And I just I wanna I want,
Speaker:like, an a totally closed system. That's what I want.
Speaker:I I have 3 I have 3 boys, and I totally get it. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah. Yeah. You know. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker:So our next is, share something different about
Speaker:yourself, but we remind all our guests we're trying to keep our clean rating.
Speaker:Sure. Of course. Just so you know. Well so I will
Speaker:share this, and it's something kind of new that I'm really enjoying.
Speaker:My, oldest son is a freshman,
Speaker:at in high school, and he has joined his robotics
Speaker:team. Oh, cool. And they are entering
Speaker:their big competitive season. And in fact,
Speaker:he is going off to a regional competition
Speaker:overnight, leaving his mother. I have to put him on a bus. Oh,
Speaker:no. Oh, no. It's okay. It's okay.
Speaker:He's done overnight camps before, so, like, we've been I've at least he's
Speaker:been away from his mama before, but, but he had his
Speaker:first kinda big competition. They kinda had a practice this last weekend, and he
Speaker:was he's kind of a big deal on the team, and I'm very
Speaker:proud of him. And, like, learning all about robotics competition, which is a
Speaker:big national organization, and I'm really kinda
Speaker:into it. And so we are a robot robotics family, and it's very
Speaker:exciting. So That's very cool. Very cool. My
Speaker:oldest is going to be a freshman in high school, and I was
Speaker:telling them the other day, like, he's ready. I'm not ready.
Speaker:Yeah. Just you wait until driver's ed hits, and then it's like a whole
Speaker:other level. I'm not there yet. I'm I
Speaker:was hoping for autonomous cars to solve the problem, but
Speaker:I'm running out of time. Yeah.
Speaker:You did drop the, the the hint about books. So Audible is
Speaker:a sponsor. What books can you recommend? Well, I will tell you,
Speaker:I think my family may may be the top,
Speaker:purchaser from Audible because all 3 of my all 3 of my boys, my
Speaker:husband and my 2 sons, like, we have the
Speaker:annual subscription for Audible, and it might last us 2 months
Speaker:Nice. By the rate that they read read audibles.
Speaker:Personally, I personally am a big romance novel,
Speaker:reader, which, I take I share openly.
Speaker:No shame. And so for the romance readers out there, I will
Speaker:tell you that the Penny Reid series, the the
Speaker:beard series. So, Andy, I will tell you, you have quite a good beard.
Speaker:It's a romance novel, and it's the beard series by Penny Reid. It's
Speaker:absolutely wonderful, very funny, very sweet,
Speaker:not suitable for this podcast if it's a family podcast because
Speaker:it's a little steamy, but it is very good and very sweet. So
Speaker:That's awesome. That's awesome. You can go to the data driven book dot com or
Speaker:the data driven book dot com, depending how you wanna pronounce it. You'll get,
Speaker:one free audio book on us. And, you know, and
Speaker:if you subscribe and become a permanent annual, or monthly
Speaker:subscriber, we'll get a little bit of kickback and, help
Speaker:support the show. And the reason why this is actually funny. The reason
Speaker:why we kind of are fairly strict not
Speaker:strict, but we're we're sticking to our guns, so to speak on the
Speaker:whole profanity thing is largely because obviously there's a professional
Speaker:image, but largely because I like to listen
Speaker:to some podcasts, and I can't do that when the kids are in the car.
Speaker:So it kind of becomes this. It's more of a flexibility thing as opposed
Speaker:to Totally. You know? Obviously,
Speaker:I guess those those novels you probably wouldn't be listening to with the kids in
Speaker:the car. You might those might be better for after the
Speaker:kids go to bed and you're having Exactly. Time. You know?
Speaker:I'm just saying, but that'll be fine.
Speaker:Yeah. So where can folks find I'm sorry, Anne. This was your question. Go
Speaker:ahead. No. I was just can't stop talking today. Where can
Speaker:folks find out more about you and what you do? So the,
Speaker:the easiest place is www.tuck point.com.
Speaker:It's probably the easiest point part, place.
Speaker:And then also on LinkedIn, I'm at, the at
Speaker:jg Swanson. I assume you'll have both on your show notes and things like that.
Speaker:Make sure we put that on the show notes. Yeah. Both of those places. So
Speaker:either for the company or for me personally, those are the 2 easiest
Speaker:places. Cool. Sounds good. Any parting thoughts?
Speaker:No. But you guys are delightful. I just just spent this has been a nice
Speaker:hour to spend with you. I just have loved it. So Well, thank you.
Speaker:Thank you. We I really appreciate you
Speaker:illuminating a lot of mysteries that I just assumed were just
Speaker:part of just that was just the cost of doing business was dealing with these
Speaker:kind of weird stuff or being in IT. Right? Being one of those weird people
Speaker:in the basement thing. Like and and and now I kinda I have a lot
Speaker:more therapy is a great analogy. I I you know, because it's like Yeah. I
Speaker:know. You walk out of a good therapy section, you're like, that's why. Like, that's
Speaker:what I feel right now. Yeah. Yeah. Good. It was really good. And I scored
Speaker:a compliment on the beard. You know, that's always a win. It's a very good
Speaker:beard. I really like it. I'm digging it. Thank you.
Speaker:It was a great show, for us as well, and I can't wait
Speaker:for our listeners to, to get a chance to see it. We just,
Speaker:launched a new service earlier this week, in fact, where people can
Speaker:subscribe and see videos. These videos behind the scenes,
Speaker:they've been asking for that for, what, Frank? 7 years
Speaker:since we started. And we wanted to do it. When
Speaker:we started. We first started talking about it. We were like, this is this would
Speaker:be great. And then we just found a platform and the stars
Speaker:align, and we relaunched, like I said earlier this week. I don't think we
Speaker:even have any subscribers yet. I I'm a little probably a little too
Speaker:transparent in that, but we'll see. It's either
Speaker:look. It's either this is the way we roll. I'll go and subscribe. I'll be
Speaker:your first. Awesome. Woo hoo. That'd be kind. But it's you know, the
Speaker:way we look at things a lot of the time is it's like it's an
Speaker:experiment. You mentioned that earlier when you were talking to your clients. She's that you
Speaker:do a lot of experiments and see how things roll. Well, if we get
Speaker:one, awesome. If we get a 100, that'd be nice. You know? But
Speaker:Yeah. We started the podcast, and we thought we were gonna do, I
Speaker:don't know what, Frank, 10 episodes. And this is gonna be this is
Speaker:gonna be around 375 or something like that. Yeah. 348, 3
Speaker:3. Okay. So almost almost 360, basically. We're Yeah. We're gonna
Speaker:we're gonna do a 360 retrospective for show 3 60. Sorry. I
Speaker:spoiled the surprise everyone, but That's okay. It's a good tease.
Speaker:It's a good tease. That's right. That's right.
Speaker:Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you so much for having me, you guys. I really enjoyed
Speaker:it. Thanks. It was great show, and we'll let Bailey finish the show. Awesome.
Speaker:Thank you, Jennifer, for an excellent show. No longer
Speaker:will I cringe when someone says digital transformation now that I understand
Speaker:the true meaning on the term. We know you're busy and we
Speaker:appreciate you listening to our podcast. But we have a
Speaker:favor to ask. Please rate and review our podcast on
Speaker:Itunes, Stitcher, or wherever you subscribe to us.
Speaker:You have subscribed to us, haven't you? Having high
Speaker:ratings and reviews helps us improve the quality of our show and rank us
Speaker:more favorably with the search algorithms. That means
Speaker:more people listen to us, spreading the joy. And,
Speaker:can't the world use a little more joy these days?
Speaker:So, go do your part to make the world just a little better and be
Speaker:sure to rate and review the show. Until next time,
Speaker:this is Bailey signing off.
About the author, Frank
Frank La Vigne is a software engineer and UX geek who saw the light about Data Science at an internal Microsoft Data Science Summit in 2016. Now, he wants to share his passion for the Data Arts with the world.
He blogs regularly at FranksWorld.com and has a YouTube channel called Frank's World TV. (www.FranksWorld.TV). Frank has extensive experience in web and application development. He is also an expert in mobile and tablet engineering. You can find him on Twitter at @tableteer.